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Ethanol - Map Adjustment? (Read 16188 times)
sign216
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Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
04/06/12 at 03:56:05
 
Has anyone adjusted their map for ethanol?

Cliff generously gave me his Breva map to use on my V7C, and I am experimenting with it.  Cliff's map was designed for pure gasoline, but in the northeast USA, all fuel is either 10% or 15% ethanol (E-10 or E-15). 

References give these stoichiometric fuel-air ratios;
Gasoline at  1:14.7
E-10 at       1:14.1

My calculations suggest that a gasoline map should be enriched 4% for use with E-10.  Does this sound right?  Anyone have direct experience with this?

Joe
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Mad Farquhar
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #1 - 04/06/12 at 22:43:39
 
Hi Joe - in the UK our ethanol content is currently less than in US fuel and I believe that of Sweden (Raz?). The UK will follow in due course no doubt. A Qinetiq reporthttp://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/qinetiq-10-02471/ mentions "enleanment" (section 3.1) and at E10 your 4% may be prudent however even more fuel may be required to counteract the high oxygen content in ethanol - 35% of ethanol is oxygen - as mentioned in this report. Interesting as the lambda sensor suggests richer settings on my 1100 sporti than I imagined necessary. Not a chemist but worth considering.

Gavin
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sign216
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #2 - 04/07/12 at 03:16:15
 
Gavin, it may never happen in the UK.  A major reason we have it in the US is that corn is a big crop, and farmers have political friends. 

I have just started doing road tests, and will probably base map enrichment on spark plug condition. 

If you have a better way to measure, let me know!
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Mad Farquhar
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #3 - 04/07/12 at 18:21:13
 
Have you considered the ecu tie in with a lambda sensor? It takes some of the guess work out of the process and enables pretty serious logging. My bike seems to like more fuel than the ideal stoichiometry value suggests although this may be a calibration issue with the sensor - to be checked this year with a sensor from my friendly local http://www.hmdtuning.co.uk/motorcycletuning.htm dyno centre. As I am unclear what motorcycle / ecu combination you are running it may be worth checking this out with Cliff. Plug chops are ok but for continuous monitoring you can't beat a wide band sensor - a "dyno on the road" basically.
I, and other MyECU users operate the Innovate LC1 http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php system - not particularly cheap, but converts my 1100 sport FI into a closed loop system - if I want.

Worth checking out the threads on here about this facility and user experiences.

Our petrol is presently at E5 - I think. I run an Isuzu diesel p/up day to day and so haven't looked at the petrol pumps this year yet - still some snow on the roads around here. Hopefully the doomsters warning of E10 or E15 will be proved wrong but the EU trend is to move towards less CO2 fuel by-product so it's inevitable I guess.
Gavin
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« Last Edit: 04/07/12 at 23:39:40 by Mad Farquhar »  

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sign216
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #4 - 04/07/12 at 22:46:07
 
I've got a 2009 V7C, which has a single lambda sensor for both cylinders.  I haven't run it closed loop yet, as I want to get the map as correct as possible first.

The real bug is that one cylinder is running much richer than the other.  Does MyECU allow for separate maps for each cylinder?
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #5 - 04/07/12 at 23:22:08
 
In that case I'd check the injectors before I'd start fiddling with the map. I had this on my V11, when one injector was obviously worn and so let through about 15% more than the other one. First I thought the other one needed cleaning and tried this and that without any good results. Only changing them could help. This was after 120.000 km, though.
Of course MyEcu allows you to address one of the injectors with different (offset) values, but I can't say whether the offset goes on the right or on the left side (from the rider's view).

Interesting thread, btw Smiley

Hubert
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« Last Edit: 04/07/12 at 23:23:39 by Luhbo »  
 
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Mad Farquhar
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #6 - 04/07/12 at 23:35:58
 
Hubert beat me to it! First off why the "much richer" issue? Check for air leaks around inlets, flush the injectors with cleaner and go through the set up procedure to ensure valves, balance and bypass are all tickety boo.

Check out the MyECU website map section - the map can be offset + or - 7% for 2nd cylinder.
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« Last Edit: 04/07/12 at 23:38:16 by Mad Farquhar »  

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raz
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #7 - 04/08/12 at 09:35:46
 
for what it's worth I did a LOT of dry-running (you could just as well call it masturb**ing) with ethanol (from E-10 up to E-85) and I don't really think you need to do anything for E-10. But 4% does sound plausible.

The beauty of a wide band sensor is it will tell the needed adjustment regardless of how much ethanol is in there. And you don't need to tell the sensor about the ethanol, it will tell lambda anyway. Regard any fuel as stoich 14.7, set target at 13.2 and you'll be more than fine.
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #8 - 04/08/12 at 22:37:16
 
The richness of one cylinder existed with the orig. ECU and orig. pistons (got a big bore kit now).  It may well be a faulty injector, but they are usually reliable items, and I hate replacing expensive parts just to "hunt" for the problem.  Changing the cyl offset would be a short term fix, and if all is well I could leave it at that. 

I've adjusted the valves, balanced the throttle bodies, and chased some earlier intake air leaks that existed when I put in the big bore kit. It's unlikely the cause here, but I am open to ideas as to the problem.

Your suggestions are right; in that I've got to fix this before I start changing the map to correct for ethanol.

In part, I am loathe to replace the injectors because I've never done it before.  Changing carburetor jets was so much easier (sigh).



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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #9 - 04/10/12 at 06:56:29
 
There are companies that will service injectors and check their flow rates etc. I think their pricing will be a lot less than buying a new injector.
I'd start with a good injector cleaner first.
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #10 - 04/10/12 at 12:15:33
 
YaBB Administrator wrote on 04/10/12 at 06:56:29:
There are companies that will service injectors and check their flow rates etc. I think their pricing will be a lot less than buying a new injector.
I'd start with a good injector cleaner first.


Yes, I found a company that'll clean, test, and flow map the injectors for $50 US for the pair.  Right now I'm swapping the right + left injectors, and then a plug chop, to confirm that the injectors are a problem.

I've got a 09 V7C.  How do the injectors attach to the fuel line?  The electrical connector was fixed with a metal clip, but the connection to the fuel line isn't clear.  Anyone have experience with this? 
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #11 - 04/28/12 at 02:00:45
 
E-10 fuel has a stoichiometric level that's 4% richer than pure gasoline.  Since the oxygen sensor is what monitors the air-fuel mix, I'll adjust that.  A 4% reduction in the seven O2 sensor target voltages should make it kosher for E-10. 

Voltage changes aren't one-to-one proportional to air fuel ratio changes, but it's the best I can shoot for.

Does this sound reasonable?
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raz
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #12 - 04/28/12 at 03:47:11
 
sign216 wrote on 04/28/12 at 02:00:45:
E-10 fuel has a stoichiometric level that's 4% richer than pure gasoline.  Since the oxygen sensor is what monitors the air-fuel mix, I'll adjust that.  A 4% reduction in the seven O2 sensor target voltages should make it kosher for E-10. 

Voltage changes aren't one-to-one proportional to air fuel ratio changes, but it's the best I can shoot for.

Does this sound reasonable? 


If you run open loop, yes. But if running closed loop, you should not alter the targets: If you run closed loop you can pour whatever mix of fuel the engine will accept, and it will adjust automatically. The end result may very well be that it gets 4% more fuel and if you run in AutoTune this might end up in your map too. This is because the sensor does not actually measure A/F but Lambda and your targets are actually Lambda targets.

That was the short answer. The slightly longer answer is that even the Lambda target may actually change a little but this is for other reasons and for E10 (as opposed to E85) I really do not think it will be significant.

This is just off the top of my head and I am a bit rusty  Smiley

Raz
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« Last Edit: 04/28/12 at 03:48:02 by raz »  

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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #13 - 04/28/12 at 05:49:16
 
If you want it as good as possible you must reprogramm your controler. As the WB probes usually give Lambda the shown AFR is the product of Lambda * AFR_stoich. If you don't correct the AFR_stoich value in the lookup tables you will always get slightly shifted results.
I wouldn't care about that. I guess the position of the probe, resonances in the exhaust, losses during valve overlap etc. will have a bigger effect as this AFR_stoich value.

Hubert
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raz
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Re: Ethanol - Map Adjustment?
Reply #14 - 04/28/12 at 07:31:49
 
Luhbo wrote on 04/28/12 at 05:49:16:
If you want it as good as possible you must reprogramm your controler. As the WB probes usually give Lambda the shown AFR is the product of Lambda * AFR_stoich. If you don't correct the AFR_stoich value in the lookup tables you will always get slightly shifted results.

I believe this is not correct, at least not for most controllers. All sensors (and this is without exception) are actually measuring lambda, nothing else. Everything is lambda inside the black box: The targets, the output, the correction.

But for cosmetical reasons, there is a programmable factor so you can get the output, and set the targets, as A/FR. This defaults to 14.7 (traditional gasoline), ie. Lambda 1.0 == AFR 14.7. But again, this, is purely cosmetical.

Now, you can set that factor to whatever you want and it does not actually affect operation at all. If you actually run a fuel with a stoich of 16.92 or 3.14 but leave the setting as 14.7 you can just set your targets like you are used to: eg. 12.8-13.2. Even people that know all about this do this on purpose because they are used to these figures. What really happens is that your REAL targets is Lambda 0.8-0.9 and the sensor will read Lambda so everything will turn out OK.

Raz
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